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Author Topic: Some Reasons Why Incarceration Does Not Work Very Well  (Read 3452 times)
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Puzzled
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« on: February 28, 2011, 01:07:13 PM »

 
By John Dewar Gleissner, Esq 
Published: 02/28/2011 

 There is no satisfactory answer to why people become criminals. Theft crimes, for example, rise and fall with unemployment, but that's only one of many factors. Trouble sometimes begins with birth into environments of physical, sexual, or substance abuse, criminal activity, divorce, head injuries, poverty and ignorance. But none of those precursors causes crime. Most people with those disadvantages do not become criminals. Criminals also come from the better side of the tracks. In his book Inside the Criminal Mind, Dr. Stanton E. Samenow, a clinical psychologist, powerfully demolishes much of the conventional wisdom portraying criminals as victims of their parents, poverty, mental illnesses and life circumstances. Instead, Dr. Samenow found that criminals are defined by how they think; and they definitely think differently than law-abiding people. Most criminals are manipulative, use people as they please, fancy themselves in control, con others successfully, posture as tough guys and do not like to work hard at school or regular jobs. They thrive on intimidation and stealth. Crooks dish it out, but cannot take criticism. A minority pity their victims. Most have little remorse until caught. Crime progresses when these profoundly selfish young people bully others, get high, sell drugs, steal, gamble, rob stores, join gangs, rape and participate in violence, thrill seeking, intimidation and depravity. Drugs, intoxicants, theft, gangs, sex, violence or some combination of them help create new age slaves. People decide to disobey the law for their own self-centered reasons.

Prisons are supposed to act as a deterrent to criminal activity. Being unpleasant, potential offenders should be so afraid of going to prison that they do not commit crimes. But it doesn't work that way. That's how law-abiding citizens think. The criminal mind works differently, with less foresight and conscience. Criminals enjoy the excitement and risks, do not anticipate capture, and instead focus on what they want. By one computation, only 1.2% of burglaries result in the burglar going to prison. A low risk of punishment increases crime. Successful burglars celebrate their accomplishments. Good deterrents are certain, severe and swift. Prison is not certain, probation or youthful offender status often being granted or crimes are not even prosecuted. Prison is not always perceived as severe. Many never see a prison until they arrive. Inmates often sleep or just sit in their cells. When Mike Tyson first went to juvenile detention, it was like a reunion for him, because so many of his friends and acquaintances were already there - of course he was one of the few who did not worry about being attacked. Confinement is definitely not swift, either in the judicial process or in the sentence itself. Prisons are usually very bad places to be, but the prospect of going there fails to deter massive numbers of crimes and criminals. Out of sight, out of mind. Criminals do not always know or compute the number of years they are likely to serve for a given crime. They do not usually believe they will be caught. When they arrive behind bars, offenders often think they are the victims, that they got a raw deal in life, that they would plan better next time, that prison is a mark of accomplishment for a gangster like them, etc.

Youth, gender, and lack of education, more than other factors, explain violent crime. Well over half of all prisoners in America are high school dropouts. The vast majority are males. Males between the ages of 16 and 28 commit an overwhelming percentage of violent crimes, including first-degree murder. The very basic leading cause of violent crime in America is young male aggression in one form or another. Younger offenders are more likely to fail at probation or parole than are older convicts. In 2008, 45% of all murder victims were 20 to 34 years old. Studies show the human brain does not fully develop until age 28.

Prisons are revolving doors for recidivists. The number released is about equal to the number imprisoned. Every year, a large and poorly disciplined American army of released prisoners - over 700,000 ex-cons - goes back to the streets, many to make the world worse. Released prisoners carry extremely high rates of communicable diseases, AIDS, HIV infection, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, hepatitis B, hepatitis C and tuberculosis, often undiagnosed, into their communities, families and neighborhoods. Released convicts face many re-entry obstacles, most do not make the transition successfully, and huge numbers are recycled back into prison. Instead of making people less prone to commit crimes, prisons increase the likelihood that convicts will commit more crimes upon the completion of their sentences. Prisons, especially overcrowded ones where different levels of offenders are mixed together, are "criminogenic," they cause more crime. Prisons are, as Jens Soering's 2004 book title reveals, An Expensive Way to Make Bad People Worse.

Possessions are removed, family excluded, sexual desire frustrated. The sex ratio is at its most forbidding for normal sex, 100% of one sex versus zero of the opposite sex. Sexual deviancy increases. Life is unpleasant. Sanity depends upon mental toughness. Worries remain. Most prisoners are unhappy, many all of the time. Pagan, satanic, racist and occult religious texts are much more popular in prison than outside. Many contemplate, attempt or commit suicide or self-mutilation. The suicide rate for American prisoners is five to 15 times greater than it is for the general American population. Fewer chaplains and programs for inmates exist than in prior years.

We take every prisoner away from spouses, friends and family, constantly replicating the awful fate of many antebellum slaves. The free world isolates and abandons prisoners with long sentences. Many prisoners do not receive any visits from friends or family. Six Solid barriers separate the prisoner and any visitors during visits. Social isolation harms the prisoner's self-esteem, as rejection often does. Gangs then successfully recruit members in prison from among the isolates, metastasizing their anti-social ideas and breeding virulent racism and religious bigotry. Prisonization occurs, which is the process whereby prisoners take on the penitentiary's sick underclass values, codes and dogma. The longer the prison sentence, the more prisonization affects the prisoner.

The closed environment of prison is kept from view because prisons severely restrict the media's access, routinely prohibit press interviews, and monitor and censor mail and telephone communications. Dreadful things often do not receive investigation or publicity. Through the centuries, lack of communication between prison and the outside world allowed abuses to grow undetected inside the closed prison environment.

Prisons harm people in several ways, but do not make enough of them "penitent." Incarceration teaches depravity, affects minds adversely, and then releases its damaged products into the free world on their mandatory release date or on parole. Prisons are warehouses for criminal minds. Criminals learn better how to commit crimes, but not how to be productive in the free world or how to abandon their selfishness. Solid evidence proves that returning parolees increase crime rates in their neighborhoods.

In the last 20 years, the use of segregation or solitary confinement has increased markedly, far more than the already skyrocketing prison population as a whole, worsening outcomes and significantly increasing expense to the prison system. Solitary confinement - known as isolation, punitive segregation, disciplinary segregation, segregated housing, and other names - causes psychiatric harm in manifold ways, especially to those with previous mental illnesses. Solitary confinement can cause psychotic disorganization, self-destructive behavior, delusions, panic attacks, paranoia and an inability to adapt to the general prison population. Hypersensitivity, rage, aggression, plus memory, concentration and impulse-control problems also can stem from segregated housing units. Intolerance of social interaction is one of the more common results. America's Super-Max Prisons improve safety for correctional staff and are essentially jails within prisons, increasingly concentrating dangerous inmates in solitary confinement instead of dispersing troublemakers throughout the system. Prisoners typically receive only one hour per day outside their Super-Max cell, often alone. Nelson Mandela knew men in prison who preferred half a dozen lashes with a whip to solitary confinement. Mandela wrote that the absence of human companionship is most dehumanizing. Modern psychiatrists agree with Charles Dickens and Nelson Mandela. Speaking of the ill effects of solitary confinement, Harvard psychiatrist Stuart Grassian, M.D. said our systems of solitary confinement, "deeply offend any sense of common human decency." When one reads the names of a few famous criminals housed in Super-Max, sympathy declines, which is probably why our society permits this clean version of hell.

Our society does a poor job of punishing someone's first few crimes. We most often opt for probation, juvenile court or youthful offender status. Very inconsistent aspects of the criminal justice system involve the decision whether to grant probation or send someone to prison at each of several junctures. Fines are meaningless for criminals without money or property, so only one hard punishment now exists. Convicted felons either go to the misery of prison or receive a very light punishment: probation. Probation often sets them up for a prison sentence. Many receive probation, do not learn their lesson, offend again, and eventually go to prison. The need for intermediate punishments was highlighted in Graham v. Florida, a recent Supreme Court decision, where a juvenile received probation for his first offense of armed burglary with assault or battery, and for his second offense of home invasion robbery, got life-without-parole. Juvenile court may shield their first few crimes from scrutiny, because juvenile records often don't count in adult courts. Young offenders sometimes have to rack up one or two felonies as an adult before they go to prison. Convicts regret committing that very last crime, the one that sends them to prison. Deciding whether to punish with a feather or a sledgehammer does not give criminal judges much flexibility.

We built massive corrections systems without any scientific proof they were effective as deterrence or rehabilitation and with no recent effort to make them profitable. It's as if we put a toxic chemical in consumer products without any toxicity studies. Modern researchers - along with the rest of us - tend to ignore and forget prisons and prisoners. Scientific research is still woefully lacking given the enormity of the current crisis. Incredibly, there are no rigorous studies or statistics about people who change their thought patterns, behavior and criminal lifestyle after soul-searching in prison. We do not know how to succeed. The architecture of prisons is impressive from the outside, but the way to successfully deal with their inhabitants has always been uncertain and unproven.

Idealists originally thought penitentiaries would make prisoners penitent, leading to religious conversions and rehabilitation. To accomplish this, they did the worst thing they could do: they isolated prisoners in a very bad environment. Sometimes prisoners had to keep silent, another form of solitary confinement. Cutting off prisoners from society made it difficult for inmates to keep their sanity or cope on the outside. Isolation from normal society made it that much easier to learn criminal ways inside the prison. Prisoners lost feelings of self-worth. While appropriate punishment promotes pro-social cooperation in normal human society, punishment that completely removes individuals from cooperative society also deprives normal society of any pro-social behavior brought about by that punishment.

Idealists and vindictive people who did not understand the effects of confinement wanted others, beneath themselves, to go there, just as non-drinkers obtained passage of the Eighteenth Amendment to initiate Prohibition: another failed social experiment. The public agreed to the idea of prisons because it got rid of the problem temporarily and seemed better than capital and corporal punishment. Imprisonment was considered civilized and modern. Prisons were out of sight, so slumbering humanity could ignore them. Idealists gave birth to a monster, just as those who sought to create a workers' paradise had done. Few of the great ideals and theories about penitentiaries produced a system that worked as anticipated. Most reform efforts merely made an impractical institution better for several years in certain locations.

Abandonment of corporal punishment in favor of incarceration turned out to be a change from an emphasis on rehabilitation within normal society to one on incapacitation outside it. Reformers thought they would isolate prisoners and shape their behavior. They placed prisoners in the equivalent of Skinner boxes, but then provided very few rewards or punishments inside those cells. The all-powerful pro-social forces of school, family, church, employment and community were abandoned, subtracted from the process. Prisons rewarded inactivity with food, clothing and shelter, but pro-social activity was nearly impossible to have or reward inside the cell. Concentration on specific prisoner behavior became logistically and financially prohibitive. Altruistic punishment and the cooperation it supports work best in smaller groups, but those small groups were abandoned in favor of huge groups.

In addition to keeping prisoners in, prisons made it tough for free people to enter them for purposes of assistance or monitoring. Monitoring prison conditions over the course of many years became even more difficult for outsiders to accomplish. The inability to shape prisoner behavior was obvious well before we built a million cells. Regular attention to individual behavior only comes about when a financial incentive exists for those in control to monitor individuals.

Crime victims are not satisfied, society and taxpayers pay an enormous price, massive amounts of time and money are wasted, correctional professionals are frustrated and overworked, and prisoners come out of prison in worse shape after years of bullying, violence and isolation. In a land rightly concerned about the declining percentage of younger workers who have to support increasing numbers of retirees, we cage millions of young, able-bodied people and keep them inactive most of the time. When the Thirteenth Amendment specifically allowed involuntary servitude as punishment for crime, we halted almost all of it decades ago. Only a tiny fraction work hard behind bars. Former Chief Justice Warren Burger called for making prisons "factories behind fences," but special interests thwarted most attempts to expand prison labor.

By taking over two million workers out of the economy, we create labor shortages. Foreign workers, many of them illegal aliens, are then enticed to work in the United States. If we counted prisoners in the national unemployment calculations, the unemployment rate would rise significantly, because about 1.5% of the entire U.S. civilian labor force is sitting behind bars. Every prisoner requires direct financial subsidy and we suffer lost production, a true cost of inactivity. Our current system preserves "often intolerably stupid and unjust practices," just as one prison historian noted early in the twentieth century. During incarceration, the social support network prisoners need to survive on the outside is destroyed or damaged. Mass imprisonment hurts the entire American economy and the families who are without family members at home. Prisons deprive American families of family members, and the American sex ratio is unbalanced as a result. Poorer communities and families suffer. Kids grow up without parents. Over half of male prisoners are fathers; many female inmates are mothers. Without doubt, children with parents in prison are far more likely to go there themselves.

By no means does this short article spell out all the reasons modern mass incarceration is a disaster. But you get the general idea: change is needed.

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kp18437
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 01:17:22 PM »

Quite powerful...  It really makes you think.
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Puzzled
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 03:11:45 PM »

China in it's infacy first utilized it's prisoners to expand on manufacturing look at them today.  Not saying a completely agree with how they went about it.  But they recognized a resource and today that resource has spread throughout Chinas private sector.  Meaning those inside those prisons came out with skills in demand.  The Chinese government made more profit then it cost to house the inmates.  But it also allowed them to expand on manufacturing the US was giving away.  Hence China is flourishing, economically powerful, and our government figuring out how to dig deeper in our pockets rather then admit and face up to their mistakes.  I still haven't figured out how tootpaste made in China would be cheaper then manufactured by prison labor....no more then I can figure out how they don't get he who holds the manufacturing in their hand rules. Once upon a time, prisons were self sufficient in a past called reality that polticis took away with it's rederick.   
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 06:28:36 PM »

 :wc6:What a powerful report ,I want to thank you for that.I'm so glad you took the time to post this awesome  ,And what it says is so true,.If our so called politician's would ONLY STOP and think ,.,.,.,.,..,
Thank you again for a great job well done wc6

               As Always BlueMist
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Puzzled
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 08:22:08 PM »

BlueMist it's all about acceptance and realizing when all else fails ....Go back to the basics as we missed something there, if we didn't get it right the first time.  Maybe our politicians need to be looking back not forward.     
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Puzzled
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2011, 03:09:42 PM »

Speaking of China...Did you know we have more prisoners in the US then they have in China?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgtjYDnOHUw&feature=autoplay&list=ULt-bgYTaApVg&index=1&playnext=3

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feuxdejoie
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2011, 03:35:36 PM »

That is a very powerful letter.  I agree with what you are saying, thank you for posting it.
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humbird37
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2011, 05:53:27 PM »

I have read,  the U.S. has the highest prison population in the world!  Humbird
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2011, 07:28:45 PM »

I have read,  the U.S. has the highest prison population in the world!  Humbird

I'm guessing because in the foreign countries they kill && torture the offenders?
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humbird37
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2011, 08:39:23 PM »

That could be one reason....the other being, It seems to me the U.S.  locks people up for every infraction of the law, and so many are felonies. Humbird
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2011, 10:31:21 PM »

Humbird you are so right.  I couldn't agree more. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2011, 11:38:31 PM »

Speaking of China...Did you know we have more prisoners in the US then they have in China?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgtjYDnOHUw&feature=autoplay&list=ULt-bgYTaApVg&index=1&playnext=3


Puzzled - why doesn't that surprise or shock me???????
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 01:39:17 AM »

Wildcat I guess it did suprise me as China has a much bigger population then USA and they all work.  There was some years back where the US was questioning their incarceration practices.  Suggesting that to keep their production up they were imprisoning people solely to keep up with the production needs and demands.  Look who's calling the kettle black?   
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 02:12:04 AM »

I know right??? You would think the USA, for all our opportunities, knowledge, and privileges over other countries, would have one of the lowest incarceration rates in the world. The laws are so harsh in other countries that it scares most into obeying the law, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.
I often wonder if we were more like some other countries, as far as mandating education and the like, where would our prison population be? Although I do not agree with mandating who you marry, where you live, how many children you may have and what you will do career wise, there is something to be said at the end of the day for those practices. I just wish there was a way to lower the incarceration rate, and do it so that laws are not being broken by the American public.
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2011, 07:45:07 AM »

So many, many times you aren't dealing with the person though, you are dealing with their addiction! When they are "high" they go do whatever, not thinking of the consequences until it is to late. I just believe these people need a different kind of help, not locked up! Build another rehab. not another prison. If "they" do a violent crime while on drugs, then they of course, would serve time. I don't think China's tactic's are the answer. Humbird
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2011, 08:45:54 AM »

Other countries don't mollycoddle offenders like the US does....most of you can't tell me that your inmate wasn't in the system many times before it reached an incarceration at the state or federal level?  Most inmates have a rap sheet a mile long and had many, many opportunites to straighten up their act before they where sentenced to prison....I'm not sure other countries all have probation and the sheriff's work program and alcohol abuse evaluations and counseling and anger management programs and TASC and all the other social programs designed to curtail criminal behavior....and because so many offenders have skirted the law so many times they are shocked when they finally get nailed and go to prison....and then they say, gee, I'm not a bad guy...I just made ONE mistake...LOL.

The US also is a country of excess....people are allowed more opportunities to commit crimes....it's hard to rob a bank in a rickshaw if you get what I mean...they don't have guns and other violent weapons at their immediate disposal, or by mail order as in the US...and they KILL offenders at the drop of a hat in many Asian countries....and the most important reason incarceration rates aren't as high as the US is because they decriminalize drugs and haven't built an entire megaindustry for criminal justice as the US has....something or someone must support all those lawyers, judges, court reporters, prison staffs and law enforcement individuals....and fill all those prisons...

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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2011, 08:48:54 AM »

wildcat - the US government does 'mandate' education in the US...until the age of 16.
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2011, 08:53:55 AM »

And I might add that as bad as you all think US prisons are, and there are a few obvious exceptions, most of them are pretty cushy for the inmates and they aren't really a detterent to crime....no one is tortured or starving or all the other horrible injustices that go on in other parts of the world...and if things were that bad inmates wouldn't be going back and forth to prison like a revolving door....it's too often a badge worn proudly by our younger population...
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2011, 10:28:12 AM »

I L.O.V.E your answers Dazz! I did a little research && talked to my friend who did 2 tours in Afghanistan && if people think the U.S is bad we have to count our lucky stars that the government doesn't run things like they do overseas. Instead of locking the offenders up they are tortured and/or killed for many of the things our guys are serving time for....
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2011, 11:46:53 AM »

They take them to the local school stadium and shoot them with a firing squad....just keeping it real eb...
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 01:42:07 PM »

wildcat - the US government does 'mandate' education in the US...until the age of 16.
I know that, I mean longer time in school! (like 6 days and from 7 am until 7 pm, for example)!
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 03:22:36 PM »

We are so spoiled in the United States...sometimes to our own demise!
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 06:42:29 PM »

Per James Gray Former US Supreme Court Judge......"Prison space should be reserved for people we are afraid of ....not people we are mad at" .   
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2011, 07:00:24 PM »

Maybe you can give some examples of which is which?  Who are you afraid of and who do you think the People of the State of Illinois should be afraid of, rather than mad at?  I've tried to think of a crime that would be sentenced for 'being mad at' and I can't think of any....I'm afraid of drunk drivers, I'm afraid of addicts that rob and steal people for their fixes, I'm obviously afraid of rapists and murderers...who is being punished because we're mad at them?  Even my own inmate was a jerk when he drank and chaulked up seven DUI's...yes, I would've been afraid to be on the streets when he was driving too....I'm curious what others think about the justice's quote...maybe I'll think of a crime I wouldn't want someone arrested for just out of anger...and not a fear for the public...

Now this is an interesting topic...
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2011, 07:31:23 PM »

Wildcat I know you read the recent post and likely many more just like it.  Struggling LO's barely keeping their and their families heads above water, if that ....and inmates ticked because it's automatic with them they are expect (demand) the phone service to be available to them and monies for their comissary be there on time.
 Prison manufacturing such as with China, Manufacture for open market sale would put the responsiblity of payment for incarceration back on their shoulders. Their payscales higher from the profits thereby  Taxpayers not paying for the bulk of everybodies keep.  Phones and spending monies cease being the  responsiblity of outside LO....Just like in the real outside world. You want  better....work harder.  Screw it up and your in Seg with you basic Soy diet, no comissary, or calls.  And by the way...no family cannot send monies or provide a phone service...you gotta earn it yourself or go without!!  That may sound harsh but in truth I think most would jump at the chance to immediately be placed at a real job with real pay even if it includes paying there own way....School oh yeah you do that after work and that could earn you an advancement to the better paying job once you've proven yourself.  If that doesn't appeal to you as an inmate, you get the barest of basics and no outside to help get it for you.  It may sound far fetched  but it might get some of their heads out of the self entitlement world of too much thinking time ...LOL  . 
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 07:54:10 PM »

Okay Daz, off the top of my hat...
Driving on revoked or suspended liscenses with no dui's, nor accidents. 
Those who get locked up for child support issues.  Not condoning but neither do I think imprisonment is going to do anything but suspend the child's chances of getting any moneys if ever...longer. 
Those caught with drugs (especially pot) but not selling, robbing, or committing violent acts or showing agression.   
Those are off the top of my head Daz. 

     
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2011, 08:18:28 PM »

Oh and the homeless guy picked up that deliberately kicked the cop just so he would get an assault charge so he can spend winter with a roof over his head and 3 squares.  Which Ironically does it every winter he's out.  LOL 
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2011, 09:04:14 PM »

You said a mouth full, Puzzled!!!!!  wc72
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2011, 09:15:00 PM »

Okay Daz, off the top of my hat...
Driving on revoked or suspended liscenses with no dui's, nor accidents. 
Those who get locked up for child support issues.  Not condoning but neither do I think imprisonment is going to do anything but suspend the child's chances of getting any moneys if ever...longer. 
Those caught with drugs (especially pot) but not selling, robbing, or committing violent acts or showing agression.   
Those are off the top of my head Daz. 

     
Yes, this is interesting...
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Dazzler
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2011, 09:32:19 PM »

The homeless guy that kicked the cop would get a few months in a county jail...
numerous driving on revokeds are considered the same as DUI's in Illinois....and charged the same if you ever had one DUI in your past..

Child support avoiders that are locked up used to have to come up with some monies before they are released and it went directly to the mother/child.  Sometimes people need a wake up call because they scoff at all the other chances they've had....
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2011, 09:46:14 PM »

Okay I had to reread your post Daz...Obviously figured out what I listed off the top of my head, are those things I wouldn't be afraid of..... but rank more as society being mad at,  with the laws the law mentality.  The things that I deem as "afraid of" is much of the same that you posted. Basically those that use aggression, violence, and physically try intentionally or under the influence to hurt or kill somebody.  However in a case with a DUI their was turning 19 years old,  honor student on his way to college, no problems with the law and one day picked up his buddies for a party.  He got drunk along with his buddies, the car went off road overturned and his best friend he grew up with died.  Had no previous record.  I believe my son said he is now in his 8th year in prison and remorse and self loathing over the years have now turned to bitterness and contempt of society and the legal system.  

I myself know of another boy years ago and same thing with his girlfriend, tried to hang himself.  Yes I understand the tolls Dui's take very well and I live in the DUI capital State.  It turns my stomach that some just repeat and repeat and repeat till someone someone gets injured or dies.   But in the case where there were no priors, basically nothing else found in terms of a former arrest record.  Are we putting them there facing murder prison charges because the deceased parents are mad and looking for  pain relief (to which there really is none)  In these instances are these kids really someone to fear at the time of the happening or once they get out of the prison conditoning .  Were they put there because of "mad" or "fear" ?
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2011, 10:49:59 PM »

Thank you Puzzled.   Nowadays it's is all about blame and making sure someone "pays". Back in the 70's I knew of several incidents of kids(19 legal back then) out partying, had an accident & best friend killed or brain damaged forever. None were ever imprisoned. Back then the "victim" shared some accountability as they were just as drunk as the driver. The penalty of living forever with the guilt of killing your best bud was enough to satisfy a debt to society.
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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2011, 10:53:49 PM »

wildcat - the US government does 'mandate' education in the US...until the age of 16.
I know that, I mean longer time in school! (like 6 days and from 7 am until 7 pm, for example)!

Why would ANY parent want their children in school for those long hours and 6 days a week?  So that someone else can take over the PARENTAL responsibility as the primary educator?  And WHO will pay the overworked and underappreciated, underpaid educators?  

Now back on the topic:  there are times where a wake-up call with a stint in prison DOES work.  I know several people who went in for drugs and believe prison actually saved their lives.  

Having said that, did you all hear about an Ohio women who got sentenced to a felony crime (10 years) for having falsified documents that allowed her children to go to a more desireable school district?  The judge supsended the sentence to 10 or 20 days (can't remember) to county jail.  

I don't believe the sentence fit the crime, but unfotunately, our system is not perfect.  I have often read in newspapers of convictions with a light sentence for heinus crimes.  

Bottom line: I'd rather live in this country than any other country in the world and am proud to be an American that has been afforded amazing opportunities - the same opportunities that are available to all citizens.
 

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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2011, 10:54:51 PM »

The homeless guy that kicked the cop would get a few months in a county jail...
numerous driving on revokeds are considered the same as DUI's in Illinois....and charged the same if you ever had one DUI in your past..

Child support avoiders that are locked up used to have to come up with some monies before they are released and it went directly to the mother/child.  Sometimes people need a wake up call because they scoff at all the other chances they've had....

IF ever you had one DUI all the driving on revokes are considered the same as DUI's ?  Yet if that person had not had a DUI in years regardless of their soberiety behind the wheel it's considered one and the same thing?  So is Illinois saying if your driving on a revoked you might as well  drive drunk , same thing ...Great message!!!  But then again if you have enough money to pay out for each DUI it doesn't even matter if it results in accidents you can drive again, and again, and again....Just don't kill or injure anybody.  Sorry this one in my way of thinking isn't mad or fear...just about the legal system and money.  And your state isn't the only one...trust me.
        
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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2011, 11:20:47 PM »

Quote
Why would ANY parent want their children in school for those long hours and 6 days a week?  So that someone else can take over the PARENTAL responsibility as the primary educator?  And WHO will pay the overworked and underappreciated, underpaid educators?  

Now back on the topic:  there are times where a wake-up call with a stint in prison DOES work.  I know several people who went in for drugs and believe prison actually saved their lives.  

Having said that, did you all hear about an Ohio women who got sentenced to a felony crime (10 years) for having falsified documents that allowed her children to go to a more desireable school district?  The judge supsended the sentence to 10 or 20 days (can't remember) to county jail.  

I don't believe the sentence fit the crime, but unfotunately, our system is not perfect.  I have often read in newspapers of convictions with a light sentence for heinus crimes.  

Bottom line: I'd rather live in this country than any other country in the world and am proud to be an American that has been afforded amazing opportunities - the same opportunities that are available to all citizens.
 


I remember that mama and it was 10 days in county BUT what bothered me about that is, yes the judge had to do his job but, now that this woman has a felony conviction, she can't continue getting her nursing degree! With a felony on her record, she can't do the job she had hoped to do. I think that's sad.
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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2011, 11:32:33 PM »


Quote
Child support avoiders that are locked up used to have to come up with some monies before they are released and it went directly to the mother/child.  Sometimes people need a wake up call because they scoff at all the other chances they've had....

        
Wouldn't it make more sense to take those avoiding child support and put them in an ATC to serve time rather then prison?  If I understand what ATC facilities it's kind of a half way house arrestNot a regular prison enviornment but not freedom ether.  They do have to go out and get a job, that paycheck or portion of mandated to pay towards a set amount required by the courts and they don't get released till it's paid.  If there not agreeable the option then is prison...there choice?  Just an idea of a dead beat dads house.  
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 11:38:23 PM »

LOL..good idea but there isn't enough room for the inmates to get into ATC's....it's amazing how they manage to come up with a couple thousand bucks when they want to get out of prison though....my ex-BIL did the same thing...my sister got a small portion of the $170.000 he owes her...the county prosecuted him, she didn't..she gave up years ago...
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